Sat, February 5th 2011 at 11:41
Gavin Jones comments:

ziad.

Let me have a stab at trying to answer you.

Firstly, although I don't necessarily agree with some of what you write, thank you for having somewhat toned down your rather more 'angrier' side! I feel that over the months we've all tended to let our emotions run away with our more tolerant natures.

I don't think it's useful dragging out my situation here other than say that I've had quite a few letters published in the Cyprus Mail, latterly documenting my battle to get justice regarding the antics of my late mother's lawyer and the behaviour of the Disciplinary Board of Advocates in blatantly protecting one of their own.

Let's turn to Mr. O'Dwyer. Let's assume that he's telling anything between 51% and 100% of the 'truth' (or me in my case, for that matter). Why would either of us be going to such lengths - and with so much passion - to put ourselves through all this angst and cost on a whim and are we doing all this for fun? I hardly think so. And what about all the myriad of other cases that I and others know about which mostly don't reach the newspapers? Despite your noble defence of Cyprus - and I respect and commend it and I assure you that I do the same - there are some things that are indefensible: I refer specifically to the well documented practices perpetrated by developers, the judiciary, banks and ultimately the government.
Ziad, you have to trust somebody sometime and by and large I believe that Mr. O'Dwyer and all the others have legitimate issues which they want resolved in a fair way and not just waived away with a dismissive flick of the wrist or else 'fixed'.
You ask for 'evidence'. Other than posting my particular case notes online what else can I do to convince you? The same applies no doubt to Mr. O'Dwyer and everybody else. Surely you must understand that? In Mr. O'Dwyer's case, the blow by blow accoounts of his court appearances are there for all of us to see. What more do you require?

Yes. Churchill was a great man. But I agree with you that like the rest of us he had flaws. He was an out and out imperialist and fouled up many, many times in his political career. However, you can't throw the baby out with the bath water and have to look at him as a whole.

And yes. Many of the comments posted here and elsewhere - and on the odd occasion from me - have expessed a great deal of anger and are possibly unbecoming. However, I really do believe that most of this is borne out of frustration that 'the system' here is not addressing people's genuine grievances. As I've illustrated many, many times, Britain, America, Peru, China or wherever are not havens of perfection either but what we're debating concerns Cyprus. The fact that we're doing so is a healthy sign that we ALL care and want to do something about it, whether it's about the economy, animal welfare or bloody title deeds!

I could continue but if I did I'd be here until the middle of next week. I therefore apologize for not having necessarily addressed each of your specific points but hopefullly if others take the time to read what's been written, we can at least attempt to reduce - if not in time totally eliminate - the huge amount of gratuitous invective and personal sleights. Here's hoping...

 

Fri, February 4th 2011 at 19:18
ziad comments:

@Gavin,

I know nothing of your dispute and cannot therefore pass judgement but I hope justice prevails. If you have been dealt with incompetently you have a right to be peeved. If have been dealt with in a corrupt manner you have a right to be furious and, if that is the case, I can understand why your emotions boil over.

But you're wrong in asserting that DNM and myself should simply accept that Cyprus has large scale problems with its judiciary, legal system, title deeds and so on. I have asked on many occasions for evidence on all of these, but little has been fortcoming. Taking the example of title deeds and property issues more generally, I want to know how many people are seriously at risk of losing a home they have paid for because the developer had a mortgage on it prior to their purchasing the property without their knowledge. I want a serious discussion of the government's proposal to stop this becoming a problem. And that means including the opinions of a variety sources, including the Cypriot property industry, the banks, Cypriot politicians and so on.

Take the case of Mr. O'Dwyer. Why should I assume that he is telling the truth? And how can I - and all those others without the requisite legal knowledge - say that the legal judgements o this issue have been unfair? I'm sorry, I don't hear any serious debate about this case, simply assertions that he must be telling the truth, presumably because he's British, and the Cypriots - that is Karayiannis, the judiciary, the politicians - are involved in a mass plot against him, presumably because their Cypriots, and Cypriots don't blink an eye at denying a man of his rightful property, into which he's invested his life savings

I keep hearing of discriminatory treatment of foreigners in Cypriot courts. Give me something tangible.

So, a major gripe which I have with this webpage is that it makes too many unsubstantiated claims against Cyprus. But even graver than this is that it completely fails to contextualise any perceived wrongdoings. This is why I bring up the case of Britain: to show that whatever is talked about here happens in Britain and, therefore, is not down to something about the Cypriot character, or Cypriot society, or Cypriot genetics. If you want to talk about foreigners' perception of unfair treatment by the judiciary I'll give you evidence of the same thing in the UK. You want to discuss animal cruelty, I'll show you this is an issue in the UK. And I'll continue to do this until you, and others, stop talking abou these and other issues as if Cyprus was somehow unique - or at least unique in the EU, or the civilised world or whatever terminology you wish to use - in having to deal with these issues. So sorry, your claims about this being a Cypriot paper, and therefore comments should be about Cyprus and nothing else don't wash with me, because the way the debate is framed gives a completely distorted picture of Cyprus.

You and I clearly approach things form different angles, socially, politically and culturally. You refer to Churhill as a great man. To me he was a racist, a sexist, largely ignorant of the realities of Britain and the rest of the world, a man who was an anachronism in the early part of the twentieth century let alone today. I also find it telling that you bring up the guildford 4 and the MP's expenses saga. My interpretation is that, by mentioning these, you think corruption, miscarriages of justice and so on are dealt with in Britain, and therein lies the difference with Cyprus. Frankly Gavin, if you beleive this, you belive anything.

But what I will say, is that if you - and for that matter other people - do have a serious point to make (and in your case I'm certain you do) then you don't do your casue any good by referring to Cyprus as part of the axis of evil, as immoral, lawless, as having Orthodox bandits, uncivilised, as having the morality of a souk, not fit to be in the EU and so on. You also damage yourselves by effectively siding with people like James, George from Berlin, Janet from London and so on. These people are clearly trolls and have their own agenda. I know it, you know it, they know it. You're different, in that you clearly have points to make, even if I don't accept - without further proof - all of them, or like the way you make the points. These people don't, and it's time the standard of debate on this webpage was increased.

 

Fri, February 4th 2011 at 17:18
James JH Lockhart comments:

Gavin

The way the authorities have treated conor and thousands of others I am surprised there is not spilt blood.

 

Fri, February 4th 2011 at 10:51
Gavin Jones comments:

DNM.

Enjoyed reading what you had to say at 00.04.

My 'Jaw jaw' comment was directed at ALL of us and as I stated before, I live in hope that possibly we can ALL tone down our more wilder comments...

James.

I'd rather be 'too polite' - if at all possible. The alternative is spilt blood and it's not a pretty sight...

 

Fri, February 4th 2011 at 01:27
James JH Lockhart comments:

@ DNM/ZIAD,

Now you got your studies to-morrow in the UK off to bed now there a good boy.

 

Fri, February 4th 2011 at 01:18
James JH Lockhart comments:

DNM

You attempt to ignore what you have posted in prevous posts, your comments on gavin and george by (dnm/zia/questioner) chilren who do not want to isentify themselves.

Again you make up little stories that posters are abusive to Gcs, inventing lies to defend the undefendable.

I I think Mubarak would hire you on the spot, a person narrow minded ignorant and refusing to accept the truth. you are perfect for this sort of work.

Now regarding conor as you have admitted you know nothing of the history and cases, your explanation in your last post sounds similar to the egyption finance minister today trying to explain the uprising as disturbances from young unemployed people.

One day when you grow up and see what has happened in cyprus, where a greedy few have done so much to damage the majority you may learn to thank the vast majority of posters who took a stand against them.

but as George (a GC ) from berlin states you are unable to take truth and facts in.

 

Fri, February 4th 2011 at 01:04
Dream No More comments:

@ Gavin Jones

I hope your comment jaw jaw is better than war war is not a pacifying gesture to these two "nutters" as James like to call me and Ziad.
After your main comments 2 posts in succession by James. I suggest James takes it easy. Its not good for his health, despite the fact I always take pleasure in reading his comments. James, you always, with out fail, make me smile.

To your main post: I do not know if you have noticed. Neither me or Ziad enter the discussion at the onset. Talking for my self, I wait to see where the discussion leads. If it is just general criticism of the government, the police etc with out the virulent comments about the GC and Cypriot society I say nothing. Every government deserves the criticism they get.
The wait though to enter the discussion after the Cypriot society has been abused, generats its own momentum.Any interjection in the discussion that does not support the already existing point of view is straight away classed as alien and must be attacked.
You must have noticed. If you have not, then go through the posts again.
There are some though who claim to be educated yet they come up with comments suited for uneducated people. One expects better from them.
Regarding George and Richard's comments. You said" its rather like asking a child to adjudicate between two parents." I had to smile here. Not been sarcastic. Its just funny. What I expect you to do is to adjudicate like a parent between two silly children. If you do not, then the silly children will never learn That includes James.

Will you now tell the silly children off?

As for Mr.O'Dwyer's case let justice take its course. If you think that by been abusive and nasty towards the Cyprus people will win the case, I think its a bit optimistic.

 

Fri, February 4th 2011 at 00:18
James JH Lockhart comments:

Gavin

As you Know I am Black Watch Jaw Jaw was never preached to us as they realised the Jocks have a different way of dealing with right and wrong.

Hopefully dnm/ziad/questioner will after they move on from puberty develop into people who know what is right from wrong.

But we should not let the thread take away from what it is all about, ie Conor and Michela & daughters they been Cheated / beaten and let down by the state.

Every person who Beleaves in right and wrong should support conor and his family for the very basic right of living and owning the house they paid for.

 

Fri, February 4th 2011 at 00:07
Gavin Jones comments:

James.

As the great man said, "Jaw jaw is better than war war."

 

Thu, February 3rd 2011 at 23:55
James JH Lockhart comments:

@ Gavin

you are to polite, Nutters like DNM/ZIAD/QUESTIONER are the ideal people Mubark in egypt would hire and use ie they are the sort of people who protect the corrupt and refuse to look at the facts.

rent a mob with no contributions or valid opinions.

 

Thu, February 3rd 2011 at 23:44
Gavin Jones comments:

Dream No More.

We're all guilty of straying off the subject on the CM website. Some of us get carried away and start throwing insults at one another and our respective countries, mostly avoidable if we take care to avoid behaving like this. Not a pretty sight. It can be upsetting and turn people off from contributing. Some of us are more adept at the wind up than others, if that's what it is, and then the whole thing degenerates into a slanging match. As is demonstrated all too often here, the whole purpose of trying to have a meaningful debate is then lost.

I think it's unfair of you to ask me what I think of George and Richard's comments. It's rather like asking a child to adjudicate between two parents who are having an argument and in desperation they look for support from their offspring. I can't speak for them and others but I put it to you that an explanation for people's reaction is possibly your and ziad's perceived lack of acknowledgement that in several core areas such as Title Deeds and the Judiciary, the Republic's Administration is skating over and failing to act. If you have, then I stand corrected. It could also be that you see red and instead of concentrating on the issues, you become incensed at what you see as over the top attacks against Cyprus.

I use certain words and phrases that I think fit the bill at a specific time and sometimes, because of my anger and frustration, it boils over and I write things that I possibly regret afterwards. I suppose it's a question of degree and what we've experienced. In my particular case, my beef is with the Cypriot judiciary. That's not to say that there aren't horrendous miscarriages of justice elsewhere (the Guildford 4 in the UK, for example) and scandals (the convictions of UK MPs who've fiddled their expenses). However, that's not the point. The articles we're debating are about Cyprus and it's not good enough to deflect the plethora of injustices here by saying that it's the same elsewhere. It's not good enough and isn't an argument.

Perhaps we ALL need to take stock and at least try to curb some of our more violent excesses, some of us more than others. I live in hope...

 

Thu, February 3rd 2011 at 22:44
James JH Lockhart comments:

@ DNM/Ziad/Questioner

George who you complain about is a GREEK CYPRIOT who lives in berlin.

He was polite describing the above named, I am not you are nutter, ignorant and narrow minded,

remember you post you know nothing about the thread and conor

and you still post ? son did the hospital slap the wrong end when you where born ? maybe that will explain your ignorance ?

 

Thu, February 3rd 2011 at 21:06
Dream No More comments:

@ Gavin Jones et al

I am not Ziad. I am who I am. If the GC new what is has been written about them here I would not be surprised at all if they will declare: Iam Ziad, I am DNM
To the point though. I am wondering if we are reading the same posts.
If it was just about Mr O'Dwyer's case people would have nothing much to talk about. If the case though is seen as an opportunity to attack everything Cypriot the possibilities are endless.
The case has been veered away from its original course ie just or not just decision. It now encompasses civilization,banana republic,corrupt Cypriots,uncivilised society, Cypriot mentality,Orthodoxy and anything else you like to mention. With a bit of imagination and some latent prejudice the sky is the limit.
Here are some comments from George from Berlin, who does not forget to remind us all that he is a neuropsychologist!
Would you imagine an educated person coming up with the following?
" People like Ziad are only verifying once again the true nature of most Cypriots" " The whole world knows that this island is about corruption from top to bottom" " Cypriot mentality will never change" " a country like this should never be a member of the EU..." " A banana republic" " Corrupt and uncivilized society"
" This rotten island"
George makes me cringe. What do YOU think Gavin?
I would never use terms like the above to describe any society.
I do not know if George is using cultural relativism in order to judge the Cyprus society. George and the rest of the posters, if you want to judge a culture you must not judge it by the values it does not hold for itself., otherwise you are betraying your own cultural arrogance. George, in your case, you are betraying your own ignorance.
And here is another beauty from Richard James from Africa" Poor, lovely Cyprus. can we not move the Cypriots to Madagascar!" What to you think of this one Gavin?
Do I put words in other peoples mouths as you claim? What do you make of them? Are they talking about Mr ODwyer's case or use the case as a vehicle for something else.
There are much more here. Too many to mention. The theme is the same,Cypriots and Cypriot society. Read them. You do not have to be Derrida to see what they are all talking about.

 

Thu, February 3rd 2011 at 15:40
George from Berlin comments:

@ Gavin Jones

You are absolutely right. The problem with these people (even though I have strong reasons to believe that Ziad, DNM, and Questioner are one and the same) is that they do not have any interest in Mr O'Dwyers case whatsoever.

What we are dealing here is people who have simply turned away from reality and they live in a world of their own. Being a neuropsychologist I have seen many cases like this. Communicating with such individuals is a challenge, even for us professionals, due to among other things their total lack of empathy.

However, there is a possibility that one day they will "wake up" and realise that their dream world is not at all what they imagined and that is of course a traumatic experience which often results in major depression. It is all quite sad really...

I am sorry to hear that you and your family lost everything in Famagusta. I loved Famagusta when I was a boy especially its golden sandy beach! I do hope that we will all be able to visit a free Famagusta in the not too distant future.

Best regards.

 

Thu, February 3rd 2011 at 15:38
George from Berlin comments:

@ Gavin Jones

You are absolutely right. The problem with these people (even though I have strong reasons to believe that Ziad, DNM, and Questioner are one and the same) is that they do not have any interest in Mr O'Dwyers case whatsoever.

What we are dealing here is people who have simply turned away from reality and they live in a world of their own. Being a neuropsychologist I have seen many cases like this. Communicating with such individuals is a challenge, even for us professionals, due to among other things their total lack of empathy.

However, there is a possibility that one day they will "wake up" and realise that their dream world is not at all what they imagined and that is of course a traumatic experience which often results in major depression. It is all quite sad really...

I am sorry to hear that you and your family lost everything in Famagusta. I loved Famagusta when I was a boy especially its golden sandy beach! I do hope that we will all be able to visit a free Famagusta in the not too distant future.

Best regards.

 

Thu, February 3rd 2011 at 10:53
RICHARD JAMES from AFRICA comments:

Why do you good people even bother to respond to the embarrassing retards ZIAD, DNM, QUESTIONER, et al. They are the incontrovertible proof of the poor intellectual level of these island bound poepols.

My response to the aforementioned is a well known Latin phrase often used by Caesar Augustus to such rabble when staying over at Ayia Napa for a weekend with Cleo -

FRUORAB!!

No more education for now, I have work to do.

 

Thu, February 3rd 2011 at 10:43
Gavin Jones comments:

James Lockhart, Janet from London, Kia Picanto, George from Berlin & Others.

Sad to say that one can't debate with the likes of ziad and DNM so it's not worth the candle trying to. They only dish out personal insults, accuse others of racism, when all they're trying to do is point out blatant injustices, distort and put words into other people's mouths.
In addition, they use the spurious argument that the ills here are the same elsewhere. So what. We're discussing events here - and not in Britain, Cambodia or Outer Mongolia...

 

Thu, February 3rd 2011 at 03:40
Janet from London comments:

@ Ziad & DNM......you are truly sorry people. You have been told and given different points of view and information regarding Conner ODwyer's case..but the truth is your not the least bit interested.You just want to argue with anyone that posts anything you don't like the sound of. As for a few weeks in the sun, I lived just outside Limassol for over 6 years and near Avdimou for a few years before that. I can say and pass comment on who I want, and post an opinion on here on a subject that I do know quite abit about.....and there isn't anything you can say to stop that. You keep harping on about the shepard and the old Lady when really no one really cares about what the hell your on about.
@ james.......I have recently read in the Cyprus Property News that the first case of assault on Mr ODwyer has gone before a judge and Mr ODwyer has won......I have been away on business and can't seem to find anything in the Cyprus Mail, was it reported or not???? Does anyone know anything about it?

 

Thu, February 3rd 2011 at 01:10
James JH Lockhart comments:

ziad,

Time you went to bed you got school to-morrow in the uk where you stay.

 

Thu, February 3rd 2011 at 01:08
James JH Lockhart comments:

You are son,

you been told many times the legal position, you just do not want to rea or understand because your inner hatred cannot let you see the truth.

you been shown up fully over your comments over gavin and unable to bring your self to apologize about this man who been a fearless fighter in defending refugees from 74.

you admit you know nothing about the thread and post snide comments which only show your narrow minded ignorance.

you do not represent mainstream cypriots and never will.

 

Thu, February 3rd 2011 at 00:56
ziad comments:

@James

Socrates has a famous quote: 'True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing'.

Both DNM and myself know very well, and publicly admit, that we know nothing of Mr. O'Dwyer's case, especially its legal intricacies.

You, Janet and others are, unfortunately, not so knowledgable about what you do and don't know (or perhpas not so honest). I have asked in the past for people's sober and legal interpretation of what is happening, and why it is such a scandal; noone has been forthcoming, including you.

So, brave Scot, who's the ignorant one?

 

Thu, February 3rd 2011 at 00:43
James JH Lockhart comments:

@ DNM/Ziad

your last post shows your total ignorance summed up by your last sentence.

I know nothing about

 

Thu, February 3rd 2011 at 00:31
Dream No More comments:

@Janet from London

You know nothing of my country, you know nothing of its people or culture and yet you are qualified to pass judgement. A week or two in the sun does not turn you into an expert of all things Cypriot.
(In fact many have been here for years and know nothing of Cyprus.)
You want me and Ziad to go away, because you are fed up with us.
Well dear Janet, I will not.I will be here combating the arrogance and self righteousness of the posters, their continues lambasting of my country and its people and reminding you, that you are not any better than the shepherd or the old lady I have mentioned previously.
I urge you to do the same, if you agree with me.
Regarding Mr O'Dwyer's case, I know nothing about.

 

Thu, February 3rd 2011 at 00:25
James JH Lockhart comments:

@ Ziad

You represent cyprus what tosh !!

you insulted a refugee ie gavin with your ignorance, this thread is about conor, and you contribute nothing,

your problem is you have a big chip on your shoulder posting nonsense about defending gc etc

I will remind you once again this is not about GC versus brit though you seem to want it.

This is about a brave man who been beaten and cheated fighting for his right and every other home owner in cyprus. to own the house they bought.

you with your snide inmature posts trying to wrap your self up as a defender of the way things are is disgusting. gavin jones serves cyprus far better then you ever will.

 

Wed, February 2nd 2011 at 23:54
ziad comments:

@Janet from London

Hello once again! First off, well done for understanding Bonnie Prince Charlie's last comment - you did better than me. I thought it would be pretty clear me and DNM are not the same person but if you want to be believe we are, so be it.

First, the point DNM and I (or if you prefer, just I ) are trying to make in posting here isn't particular to Mr. O'Dwyer's court case;it's to do with turning almost every story into a tirade against Greek-Cypriots, as if we are all one and all possessed of bad character. So I understand the people on this webpage will talk about Cyprus not Poland; but that doesn't mean they should talk about GC's in such a derogatory way.

There you go again casting judgement on Mr. O'Dwyer's court case, somehting which, from a legal perspective, you know nothing about. (If you do I feel sick: how can one person be a qualified lawyer, one of the world's most successful estate agents and a regular comment-maker of such majestic erudition?)

I didn't know that me and DNM were so famous. Mind you I'm not surprised you know many of the regular contributors to this webpage: it just convinces me even more that the people who make comments here are a tiny number and many are connected.

Your comment on me getting off this website is pretty much what I'd expect from you. Actualy, the whole point of having a comments section is to engage with people you don't agree with. Notice that neither DNM nor I have ever told people not to comment; instead we try to fight their representation of Cyprus and do it rather well, even if I do say so myself.

 

Wed, February 2nd 2011 at 23:22
Janet from London comments:

Here we are again....A warning to everyone that is posting on here re: Conner ODwyer.. We are responding to the injustice that he has suffered in CYPRUS in a CYPRIOT court, by the hands of a CYPRIOT developer and at what can only be described as a clueless CYPRIOT judge.......By way of articles written in a CYPRIOT newspaper...what would Ziad and DNM want us to talk about, the Polish???? Please everyone, these two people ( although I am inclined to think they are one and the same like James does) are well known for "hi-jacking" the thread and trying to start debates on other issues. I have been told by friends who post on these forums on a regular basis that it is best to ignore them and they will go away. Ziad and DNM......from all who are fed up with your whining....if you don't like whats being said...........stay off here, and go away.OR get out more.

 

Wed, February 2nd 2011 at 21:28
James JH Lockhart comments:

@ Ziad,

Switch the ID on keyboard for DNM to post now.

maybe you try posting using your real name same as gavin an i do or is that a step to far in to man hood for you.

 

Wed, February 2nd 2011 at 21:20
James JH Lockhart comments:

@ Ziad,

I think you are just as bad as DNM You just dont like british type names postings then you come out with your hatred both off you are inmature people trying to defend the undefendable.

What this thread is about is justice and the rights of people. do you understand even that ?

Now Greek Cypriots lodged conor appeal to the supreme court his case like many others should never have reached this stage.

As to your utterly silly comments on gavin just shows you as a ignorant youngster narrow minded in how you classify people. gavin has as much right to live and speak his mind in cyprus as anyone.

Now to expose your ignorance. gavin is also a refugee, he and his family lost everything in famagusta he spent months living in camps

where were you in 1974. I think that just proves your ignorance and lack of knowledge about the subject

 

Wed, February 2nd 2011 at 21:14
Dream No More comments:

@ James

I do not hate the Brits. I told you many times before.My best friends are Brits. Not the kind posting here though.
And I neither suffer from cultural cringe.

PS You have not answered my question though.

 

Wed, February 2nd 2011 at 20:47
ziad comments:

@James,

Sorry, what facts are about Cyprus are you talking about? I haven't seen any presented or discussed. I see lots of polemics, little of anything else.

As for Gav's background, the fact he has some Greek-Cypriot in him is irrelevant: many of the colonies had and still have people who hate what they understand to be their culture, and see the culture of the coloniser as superior. He's someone who wants to amplify any bad thing which happens in Cyprus (many of which are simply in the collective consience of the readers of this paper rather than out there in reality)and broadcast it all over the internet. And the reason why I call him a racist is because anyone with a modicum of sensibility would realise that all the bad things he moans about also happen in Britain - it's just that he doesn't call Britain an immoral and lawless society.

And he deserves to be confronted because he always tries to portray himself as the voice of reason, as a sane voice in the mad world which is this webpage, someone simply desiring civility and an end to barbarism - a cross between Rudyard Kilping and Yoda. Well Gav, I got news for you buddy: you ain't.

@DNM/James
Very well put DNM: the whole tone of the e-mails here is about civilising the natives.

 

Wed, February 2nd 2011 at 20:38
James JH Lockhart comments:

DNM

You are a silly person Thinking its only Brits, Have a look at some of the posters names What nationality is Conor lawyer ?

I repeat you just cannot handle the sad facts and the many people fighting for justice, your thoughts is it is the terrible brits and your hatreds come out

Grow up.

 

Wed, February 2nd 2011 at 20:15
Dream No More comments:

@James JH Lockhart

How nice. The Brits want to improve the lot of us!!!
To lift us from barbarity to civilization!! With a modern system of law etc etc.
You are here to civilise the natives!! To turn us into a modern state!!.
You are just unable to shed your colonialist mentality.
You just cannot help it.Read your piece again and have a good laugh.

PS What about the question I have asked below? No comment? Do you agree with George?

 

Wed, February 2nd 2011 at 18:19
James JH Lockhart comments:

@ Ziad/DNM

Your problem is you are unable to handle some very sad Facts about Cyprus, You refuse to understand that people like Conor and gavin with so many others are fighting to improve the lot of all people on this Island, ie The main Group of people who will benifit when Cyprus has a modern System of Law, lawyers, judges, developers, and property laws will be Greek Cypriots.

The two of you have chips on your shoulders. I think my earlier post on Gavin background against the SILLY POST of Ziad sums it up.

Grow up.

 

Wed, February 2nd 2011 at 18:10
James JH Lockhart comments:

@ Zaid,

You have posted about Gavin Jones, Mr Jones is actually a Anglo-Cypriot, His mother was a Famouse Greek Cypriot painter, His Grandfather was a leader of the Greek Cypriot people arrested and jailed by the British in 1931.

Maybe you want to change your post about him, or prefer to concentrate on your studies in England.

 

Wed, February 2nd 2011 at 02:45
Dream No More comments:

@ Kia Picando
I am getting no response from George. Would you or any one else posting here, like to help George from Berlin to tell us what
" the true nature of most Cypriots" is?
Do you agree with George?
Do you know what " the true nature of most Cypriots" is?
I will interpret your silence as giving tacit approval to George's
statement and to many others who posted derogatory statements here on everything Cypriot since 21st/1/11.

 

Wed, February 2nd 2011 at 01:57
Dream No More comments:

George from Berlin

Please answer your own statement. What is the true nature of most Cypriots?
I am very interested to know.

 

Wed, February 2nd 2011 at 01:33
Dream No More comments:

@ George from Berlin

You stated" People like Ziad are only verifying once again the true nature of most Cypriots"
Sorry, but I do not know the true nature of most Cypriots. Will you spell it out for me?

 

Wed, February 2nd 2011 at 01:25
George from Berlin comments:

@ Kia Picanto

People like Ziad are only verifying once again the true nature of most Cypriots.

 

Wed, February 2nd 2011 at 01:17
Dream No More comments:

@ Ziad

You are so right.

 

Wed, February 2nd 2011 at 00:36
Kia Picanto comments:

@ ziad.What a rude, unpleasant and unhelpful diatribe! I fail to understand how you reach the conclusion, that only the BNP or UKIP parties would wish to be associated with a group of people who have bought homes, in good faith, only to discover that the so-called 'laws based on UK's' are in such a shambolic state.

I particularly find offensive, your assumption, that the majority of posters on this site, are 'colonial fantasists, outright racists, and trolls with dubious political objectives.' Is it not natural and reasonable to want justice? Is it not reasonable to ask and receive title deeds for a property, which you paid for in full, 6 years (and more) ago?

Nothing to do with politics, my friend, with or without hyperbole. Just plain and simple truth, and justice. We WILL win! The world is waiting - and watching.

 

Tue, February 1st 2011 at 23:14
ziad comments:

Guys, sorry to break this to you but you're just talking amongst yourselves. There's noone outside of your own little networks (apart from a few GC's like DNM and myself) that knows anything about the Cypriot property market. In fact, most people in the EU probably haven't even heard of Cyprus, let alone people in the rest of the world.

And frankly, most of the posters here are a walking PR disaster for any cause you wish to represent(if indeed you have one). I can't think of any groups or parties - save perhaps for the BNP or UKIP - who would wish to be associated with such a motley crew of colonial fantasists, outright racists and trolls with dubious political objectives. And the more hyperbolic your responses become (that one's for you Gav), the more outlandish your claims, the greater the tangent you veer off on, the more nasty and viscious your insults about GC's and Cypriot society, the less anybody who isn't associated with the lunatic right of Europe will want to have anything to do with you.

 

Tue, February 1st 2011 at 22:59
Andrea comments:

I know from over a years experience in the medieval court system that there's no justice for the foreigners in Cyprus..I have seen ignorant judges who argue, shout and ridicule both accused party and lawyers (some are corrupt,unlicensed representing the law for truth,yet are dishonest themselves, which I have proved!!)Difficulties with..translation as English ways of stating facts are not translated into Greek correctly because the Cypriots do not speak proper Greek(try translating on Google and it shows red lines all over the words!!)The whole process is of utter confusion as nobody knows their jobs correctly, and have never had to deal with problems they are bringing into the courts before. It's all a money making business...I am also taking my case to the Supreme courts..so petty for a 900 fine because I rescue stray dogs and they dared to bark at a Police woman!!I have been through over 15 lawyers..and none of them agreed on the laws!!! Exposing to the EU courts and getting justice in this country is necessary to fight for the truth..but you know...they really do not care!!!
From an Island that could be a rich one..they shoot themselves in the foot from pure greed..

 

Tue, February 1st 2011 at 20:52
George from Berlin comments:

@ James JH Lockhart

I'm afraid that the notion of protection and respect for citizens is only wishful thinking for a country like Cyprus.

And having the EU presidency next year is simply a farce.

 

Tue, February 1st 2011 at 13:56
James JH Lockhart comments:

All MEPs should table a motion asking for cyprus to be suspended from the presidency, till they are able to protect and provide eu citizens with rule of law

 

Mon, January 31st 2011 at 22:19
Road Warrior from Famagusta comments:

All of us should write to our MEP's again and again, to bring pressure to bear, to prohibit Cyprus having presidency of the EU !

How on earth can you give presidency of the EU to this corrupt and "Kleftis" backwater.

It is an affront to the rest of the EU.

 

Mon, January 31st 2011 at 22:03
Mike from Limassol comments:

Misiri
I started reading your post, got half way through it, thinking - of like mind, and then you spoil it by suggesting people buy "in the North where the words integrity and honesty still prevail".
Should you not qualify that by adding that those who do consider buying in the North do so but only after ensuring that the property and land it sit's on does not in fact belong to someone else. I trust you did with your house in Kyrenia. Otherwise honesty, integrity and North become a contradiction of terms as in the South.

 

Mon, January 31st 2011 at 15:14
George from Berlin comments:

I remember a friend of mine once said to me that true professionals are quite few in Cyprus, if they exist at all. At that time I was offended at his remark and found it exaggerating.

However, the way Mr O'Dwyer has been treated by these so-called developers, politicians and not least the judge in this case has made me realise that my friend was absolutely right.

 

Mon, January 31st 2011 at 14:11
Max comments:

Congratulations Misiri, you're sitting pretty now, if any Greek Cypriot should try it on and try to claim that you've got his house then your lawyer can just throw the ruling by this judge at them, as can anyone who bought over there, I bet they just love this judge, she did them all a huge favour.

 

Mon, January 31st 2011 at 13:19
MISIRI comments:

I've read all the comments and with most I agree with what they say,and that is that if anyone buys a house in the R of C side BEWARE better buy it in the North where the words "integrety and honesty still prevail. did and i now enjoy a house in Kyrenia.

 

Mon, January 31st 2011 at 02:39
andyp from UK comments:

The reality is that the Cyprus Crooks, the minority Ziad if you are hanging about, could not give a stuff unless they get hit in the pocket or are totally exposed.

I have holidays coming in 2012. What is the exact date of Cyprus taking on the Presidency of Europe? Does anyone know?

 

Mon, January 31st 2011 at 00:42
Brian Emeney from Stratford-upon-Avon comments:

The European Union should get actively involved in this shameful situation. Cyprus is not acting as a member state should.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 22:14
permanent tourist comments:

The health of the property market has a knock on effect on LOTS of other businesses in Cyprus. You only have to look and see how many are involved in manufrg and/or importing and selling windows and doors, tiles/marble, decorating tools and equipment of all sorts, even furniture! All are related businesses.

It's not just property developers and estate agents and those wanting to sell their property who will feel the effects.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 22:11
Road Warrior from Famagusta comments:

@ John from UK,

I take issue with the term "half wits", a complete over estimation of the situation.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 21:16
John from UK comments:

Property Laws are just like every other Law in Cyprus, from imports of used cars from within Europe to the non-wearing of helmets on motorbikes. It's all applied and made up as it goes along and is merely used as a means to raise taxes to fund the communist regime that once every 4-5 years masquerades as a democracy.

All of the elected politicians should Stick to growing olives and herding goats as they have no interest whatsoever in actually serving the people that foolishly vote for them. What's more is that in almost any City outside of Cyprus these politicians wouldn't even make it as a councillor on the local council, let alone be allowed to purport to run a bleeding country.

Much like all the other Flip-Flop wearing countries in the Club Med zone, Cyprus, is just another shambolic example of third world politics and half hearted laws that have been poorly thought out by half-wits.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 20:00
Steve from New Jersey comments:

Mike & Gavin are spot on! Cyprus is becoming a horror show today with this behavior.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 19:39
Johnny Cyprus comments:

Gavin,

be careful what you wish for.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 19:34
Gavin Jones comments:

Mike from Limassol (12.09).

Thank you for your frank and honest comments.
In amongst all the general angst and frustration that a great many of us are having to contend with, I feel that what you've said sums up where we are.

Unfortunately, we have indeed become an 'immoral and lawless society'. Would that the whole corrupt edifice was swept away and we could start afresh...

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 18:50
Gandolph from Paphos comments:

Some have already spoken of the weapon of silence and I would add to that; I'm still waiting for conformation (let alone a response) from the AG and president but as with most things in Cyprus, I've learnt not to hold my breath.

I wonder how the day will go when Cyprus takes over the presidency of the EU? I rather think a few demonstrations will take place, or better still, a boycott by honest member states.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 18:04
Max comments:

Keep an eye on Conor's website www.lyingbuilder.com for the appeal dates and any other court dates, hope to see you all there.... I'll be there for sure!

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 16:57
George from Berlin comments:

A country like this should never be a member of the EU in the first place.

I hope Mr O'Dwyer takes this case to the ECHR if necessary. I know it's a long struggle but it's about time the whole world knows what this island is all about: corruption from top to bottom.

I wish Mr O' Dwyer the best of luck and I do hope that justice will prevail.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 16:22
Johnny Cyprus comments:

Nigel Howarth:

Yes he can join the Permanent Secretary and the rest of them.

Both officials made their reckless statements in 2009; would they be prepared to repeat them today?

Then again I suppose they could defend themselves by pointing out that 'protection' is a relative word.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 16:21
Ralph comments:

Reading Nigel Howarth's links confirms what a bunch of liars these politicians are,and how they hoodwink the MEPs who question them.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 16:07
Nigel Howarth comments:

@Johnny Cyprus - why limit yourself to the Permanent Secretary for the Ministry of the Interior?

In July 2009 the Interior Minister, Neoclis Sylikiotis, issued a statement that included the following:

"Despite our determination to cut this Gordian knot with the introduction of new legislation for the improvement and reformation of the planning system, as well as the system of issuing property titles, it must be clarified here that even the current system and the existing legislation protects buyers and their ownership status."

His statement is available on-line at http://www.news.cyprus-property-buyers.com/2009/07/24/cyprus-interior-mi...

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 16:05
George from London comments:

This is an absurd ruling and a disgraceful situation. Cyprus, having joined the EU, should recall that they are subject to EU law. The ruling would be overturned on appeal, in my view, but if it is not then Cyprus is in some trouble.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 15:43
Johnny Cyprus comments:

Nigel Howarth:

Nigel we can add the Permanent Secretary for the Ministry of the Interior to 'Siren Voices'.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 15:43
VC comments:

There are huge lessons here for all of us to learn thanks to Connor through his unfortunate misfortune many property issues have now been exposed not looking good - dont ever buy any property whether it is land, flat and or house without property deeds and taxes paid this vicious and unfair process can be broken let the developers do all the walking ensuring when they are ready to sell their properties the buyer will have in their possession not only the property in question the deeds to go with it too, NO DEEDS NO PURCHASE. The developers and construction companies will soon get their act together for survival and progression, if not they will go down the pan !

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 15:36
Johnny Cyprus comments:

andyp from UK,

Yes, the same siren voices led me to ignore my innate doubts.

Still, at least we now know that a property belongs to the party named in the Title Deeds. All others; mortgage holders, parties to specific performance contracts etc. may have a claim, but that's all.

Buyers should be rushing to get their title deeds, but of course these cannot be issued until any mortgage holders have released their charges.

Also one must hope that no other interested parties emerge at a later date with documents proving a prior claim to title. Then of course the Developer/Vendor would have had no proper title to transfer to the buyer.

Fingers crossed.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 15:36
Dimitris from Limassol comments:

When I bought a house in Polis in 1987 I relied totally on my lawyers advice that once the 'specific performance' was lodged at the lands registry, my ownership was recognised and safe. In the next year 1988 there were auguments and confrontations in the street as certain parties tried to lay claim the the house. No courts were involved and we won in the end thanks to the fact that there were more of us than them. I feel sorry for the foreigners who are outnumbered by the crooks and have no law to protect them.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 15:23
Nigel Howarth comments:

@James JH Lockhart

The letter to Graham Watson MEP from the Interior Ministry (Property Rights of UK citizens in Cyprus) is available online at http://www.news.cyprus-property-buyers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Gr...

The second paragraph clearly states:

"It is worth repeating that even under current legislation, buyers of immovable property are protected, once they deposit the Contract for Sale at the appropriate District Office of the Department of Lands and Surveys according to the Sale of Lands (Specific Performance) Law, Cap.232."

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 14:47
Ralph comments:

Clive Turner is keen on writing the occasional letter to the CM defending developers and the whole property set-up in Cyprus,but he doesn't seem to feel the need to comment in discussions like this.

As for Cyprus moving on; I think they still hope there is life in the old horse yet,although the tradition of laundering money,especially from the former USSR and its empire is thriving.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 14:13
James JH Lockhart comments:

Would the Cyprus Mail like a Copy off the Interior Ministry letter assuring Graham Watson MEP that once a Contract is lodged in the land registery office the buyer is safe ?

Please provide the correct person to send it to ?

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 13:48
andyp from UK comments:

@ Johnny Cyprus.

The answer to your question is that we were not stupid I would suggest that we were all victims of a coordinated fraud.

All Lawyers I interviewed gave the same story.
All developers gave the same story.
All magazines published the same buying advice.
All websites, published the same buying advice.
All books published the same buying advice.
The Interior Ministry obviously issues the same buying advice.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 13:36
Max comments:

Good thoughts Mike, but the Greek press seem strangely silent on the matter, do those that have the power to vote even know about all this? Or even care, as long as it doesn't affect them at the moment? They should because sooner or later this will affect the country as a whole when their construction and tourist business goes down the pan, remember the whole world is watching and judging Cyprus on this debacle thanks to the internet.

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 13:34
andyp from UK comments:

@ Gavin Jones. Not really expecting a reply.

I have been waiting on The AG/Bar Association making a determination in my case against The Stigette for nearly 19 months with no information forthcoming on progress.

As you say silence is first line of defence in Cyprus

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 13:34
Johnny Cyprus from Cyprus comments:

These comments largely serve to confirm the general confusion and misunderstanding that surrounds the issue. Only a few of the posters seem to grasp the legal significance of contracts for 'specific performance'.

Most buyers have hitherto been deluded by Cypriot Developers and Lawyers into believing that such contracts protect them. They may have been told that nothing can affect their right to the property, even though they do not have their title deeds, as long as the sale contract has been properly lodged and stamped.

Notwithstanding the facts of this particular case, the reported comments of the judge on the issue of specific performance are generally correct.

When a Sale Contract is filed at the Land Registry, that is all it means. The contract binds the two parties; usually the vendor/developer commits to deliver the property and, eventually the Title Deeds, while the buyer undertakes to pay the contract price.

The Land Registry simply records the contract as a charge against the property, along with any others that may already be there, or may be subsequently be registered.

Buyers have been encouraged to think that it is safe to pay the vendor/developer the full contract price on filing this piece of paper.

On what basis, however could a buyer really believe that they own the property? They may have a atamped copy of the sale contract, but:

a)
The vendors financiers may already hold a mortgage on the property. If the Developer defaults on the loan the mortgage holder would have priority over the Buyer's charge. The buyer could loose everything, even though they have paid for the property.

b)
The Developer is free to take out further loans using the property as security. They can even register these charges.

C)
The Developer may go bust and any legal action to enforce the specific performance would be pointless.

d) The buyer may be unable to complete the purchase.

e)
The contract may be cancelled by mutual consent.

f)
No Title Deeds have been provided and no Property Transfer Tax paid.

Finally there is little sign of rigorous historical evidential searches to prove title rights to real estate in Cyprus. It is an island with a recent history of turmoil and huge population transfers. There are bound to be disputes over historical ownership and development rights ahead.

How could we have been so stupid?

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 13:09
Mike from Limassol comments:

All will be revealed at the future elections. If those who have an interest use their vote to let those in power know how they feel then so be it.
If they do not then we have the situation that we thoroughly deserve and will continue to give a mandate to those exploiting, ignoring and treating the everyday citizen with contempt.
The only sad part is that we have dragged innocent foreigners into our web of deceit and in some cases our own too and robbed them effectively of their lives and money and in some cases life savings.
The Cyprus we grew up in has long gone & is now replaced with an arrogant (with no reason to be), immoral and lawless society. I thank god that I am in a mountain village where we all still know each other and look out for each other and our children.
I certainly would not want to be in the tourist areas or where foreign residents have congregated. Thank goodness they have gentleman like Mr Howard to offer advice. When their money withdraws we will return to how we were in the 50's (somebody mentioned donkey's instead of Porche's) or we will sell our souls and Country to the criminal money launderers and mafia's of this world in order to pick up the crumbs.
I am just grateful that I am in my latter years but can still advise my children to leave if ever all this reaches our village.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 10:21
Gavin Jones comments:

ALLAN (21.37 yesterday).

Yes. I believe 'they' do read our comments. However, 'they' employ the weapon of silence - something that has worked for decades here when thorny issues such as this come to the fore.
On this same theme, I'd be interested to know whether Alyn Smith, MEP for Scotland, has received a reply to his Open Letter dated 30th. November to the President about general issues concerning property: I rather suspect NOT as we would have doubtless heard about it by now.

andyp from UK (01.53 today).

With reference to your second papagraph and the letter to Graham Watson MEP, yet again this proves that the Interior Minister, all the pronouncements by the Attorney General and other government bodies are worthless. And as for your final sentence about waiting for a response, I refer you again to the oft used 'Weapon of Silence'.

I therefore concur with others both here and elsewhere that the Rubicon has been well and truly crossed and that all credibility in this country has gone - regardless of whether the Supreme Court overturns the O'Dwyer ruling. Will people be mollfied and start buying again? I think not.

Finally, I repeat my assertion here and elsewhere that all roads lead to government - and that means the President. It's in his hands to instigate the required changes and it's obvious he's either unwilling or unable to do so. However, the omens look bleak as the whole system is interdependent on close personal relationships involving political alliances and the power of the legal fraternity which makes up the majority in the House of Representatives. Need I say more?

What with a bloated civil service elite, recent taxes on food which mostly affect the less well off, general overt corruption and favours for apparatchiks within the ruling classes, some would say that if ever there was a situation which mirrors revolutionary activity in nearby countries, it's here...

mark as inappropriate

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 02:53
andyp from UK comments:

@ VC. The problem we have now is that quite simply not a single person in Cyprus knows. We all bought believing the line that your registered contract was a given, notwithstanding the developer mortgage issue.

I have a copy letter from The Interior Ministry to Graham Watson MEP dated 17 July 2009 saying " Buyers are protected,once they deposit the Contract for Sale at the appropriate District Office..
The deposit of the Contract of sale... creates an encumberance on the property". Obviously this did not apply if your first name was Conor.

Did the Interior Minister lie to Europe?

Perhaps the CM should ask both The AG and The Interior Ministry for a statement of fact. Is your registered contract worth the paper it is written on?
We await a response from both.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 01:18
Max comments:

It will be challenged VC by one brave man at his own expense, we should all support and appreciate what Conor is doing, especially as Karayiannis Developers have still got all his money! The only problem is that an appeal can take up to a year to start unless someone with the power to do so speeds it up.

 

Sun, January 30th 2011 at 00:59
VC comments:

In my opinion it is not the public that has got this wrong, it is the judge that has misinterprented and produced her own view of the property law - one judge can't possibly change the law just because they wear the judges hat! government must act to ensure it never ever happens again... what is surprising her ruling still stands as no one formally and legally has challenged her ruling this is worrying and a huge concern for thousands of people.

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 21:20
Nigel Howarth comments:

There has been much discussion on Internet forums about the judge’s decision.

Some believe she was bribed, some say she was leaned on by the local mafia, others say that she deliberately interpreted the law incorrectly to favour the defendants.

The Attorney General has sanctioned an appeal - and this will be filed shortly.

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 21:00
DB from Limassol comments:

@ Mike from Limassol.

This part of your comments: ......should not attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity.

Absolute STUPIDITY !!
She is not fit for the job !!

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 20:54
Road Warrior from Famagusta comments:

In light of this article in the Cyprus mail today I happened to be browsing some of the Cyprus forums and was dismayed to see a statement from a property promoter, I will not refer to him as an estate agent as there are very few licensed estate agents here, but that is a whole other area of concern, this property promoter was of the opinion that he did not believe that the situation was as stated and that the press can spin and sensationalise a story.
Well, I can't disagree there, the press certainly can do that but, as regards the Cyprus Mail article and the statement said to have been made by the judge I can say that she did indeed make it, I heard it in Greek, I then heard it again repeated by the translator, translated in to English, he did raise his eyebrows when he translated and repeated it, and, as far as I'm aware the court translation contains the same statement, further to this were the paper to quote a statement which then proved not to be factual, they could end up in court.

The sad thing though is that these property promoters would rather gloss over such an important event and attempt to persuade you that everything is, as it was, and that was bad enough.

If people such as this accepted there was a problem, refused to deal in property until the situation was resolved, would that not be better........................instead they ignore it and keep on trying to sell, some of them are still promoting property built by the now infamous "Frenaros Tag Team".

Change should indeed come from the top but those at the bottom could play their part, till that happens the advice will always be, no deeds no sale, simples.

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 20:49
Shame on Cyprus from Cloud Cuckoo Land comments:

@James Lockhart

Yes the lawyers are still doing it, worse the code of Omerta dominates the Cyprus bar association, i.e. you find very few off the 1900 plus lawyers on the Island will take on a lawyer who has transgressed.

The ironic story from this case James, is that the lawyer who was a witness for the Defence is being investigated for Perjury and it is very difficult to hear of a Lawyer who will stand up and be counted.

What a terrible indictment from the custodians of the law in Cyprus, people whom we are supposed to respect.

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 20:35
von richthofen comments:

@Hello
'as the Cypriots have moved on to other business ventures'
Yes, online casino on every corner, faking hallumi cheese from milk powder, those are the new ventures, which fits to the so called Cypriot businessmen.
Watch my words: the property business was one of the last chances for Cyprus. Rather pray day and night, to really have oil and gas out there, and be able to exploit it. If not, the future is a grey donkey in place of an Porsche.

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 20:34
James JH Lockhart comments:

@ Hello Maybe you are the finance minister ?

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 20:29
andyp from UK comments:

It will not just be the developers looking for new markets. With a total collapse of house sales this will have huge implications for every other sector in the not too distant future.

Manufacturing, electrical, furniture, landscaping, service sectors will all suffer and that means job losses.

Anything associated with making money from the housing sector will be hit and that will include many small businesses

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 20:13
James JH Lockhart comments:

Maybe HELLO can expand for all these other business ventures ?

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 20:06
Denton Mackrell comments:

@Hello. "It matters not that the whole world knows about it as the Cypriots have moved on to other business ventures". That's not what a number of big Cyprus developers, lawyers and bankers tell me!! They tell me that that no medium or large Cypriot developer can possibly survive without foreign buyers and in practical 'big numbers terms that means British.

Some may have tried to 'move on to other business ventures' but here too if foreign buyers and investors are needed they are also being turned off by the scandal because it all comes down to trust and confidence.

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 19:11
Hello from Nicosia comments:

Wakey wakey guys. This cash cow has been milked dry. No one gives a flying fck about losing future customers as they know very well the British buyers' market has dried up. Most of the British hunting for their title deeds want them in order to sell as they are skint. It matters not that the whole world knows about it as the Cypriots have moved on to other business ventures.

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 18:31
Denton Mackrell comments:

How many years is it since Conor lodged his contract with the Land Registry and the defendants sold the property to a third party without refunding his money? If the judge was not convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that the defendants did not intend to deprive Conor permanently of the property, what other logical reason can be put forward for what they did? It cannot have been just an error or forgetfulness, as the matter was brought swiftly to their attention. What other motive could there be? By eliminating other potential defences such as insanity and intoxication, that just leaves 'lack of intent' and the purposefulness with which they went about it clearly shows intent. After all these years and no hint of a repayment, the intent looks pretty permanent to me!

Cyprus courts have no juries. Millions of media and internet users around the world, including potential new buyers of Cyprus properties, have become the proxy jury in the linked O'Dwyer cases.

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 18:25
ALLAN comments:

YOU ARE 100 PER CENT RIGHT.AFTER THIS JUDGMENT NO FOREIGNER IN HIS RIGHT MIND WOULD CONSIDER BUYING A PROPERTY IN CYPRUS,EVEN IF HE OR SHE WERE ADVISED BY THEIR LAWYERS.

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 18:07
CONCERNED from UK comments:

Sometime in the non too distant future one of these unscrupulus builders,corrupt lawyers & inept judges is going to upset some real mafia from either a country with a 3 colored flag or one with a hammer & sycle and loose not only money but body parts or their life!!!

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 17:57
James JH Lockhart comments:

@ Hector

Yes the lawyers are still doing it, worse the code of omerta dominates the cyprus bar association, ie you find very few off the 1900 plus lawyers on the Island will take on a lawyer who has transgressed.

This goes all the way to the top. !!

Shame the good lawyers on the Island remain silent

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 17:47
Mike from Limassol comments:

And who was it that said that Robert Mugabe's land grab policies in Zimbabwe to give to others were Barbaric, immoral and unlawful?
At least he had the common decency to actually tell people that he was going to do it. We do it by deceit and lies. By that measure he has far more credibility and ethics about him than we can ever hope to dream of.
What have we permitted Cyprus to become. At least I guess it is giving the rest of the world something to talk about and laugh at.
Absolutely crazy and the sooner the supreme court overturn this ridiculous decision and and section those who made it the better. This is now the biggest joke on the planet, if it wasn't so serious.

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 17:44
Ralph comments:

@Hector

Unfortunately they still do. Look at the letter in CM 16/1/11 from poor Stan Bateman of Pissouri,who completed a purchase 31/12/10 and has now found out about the title deeds scam. Luckily,their numbers are rapidly dwindling.

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 17:11
Sheik yer mami comments:

''The submission of a sales contract in Cyprus to the Land Registry does not safeguard your property rights''.

This should be added to the bottom of all cigarette packets! It's the same effect as Smoking Kills.

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 16:31
Hector comments:

Do people still buy property in Cyprus? Really? Despite having no legal safeguards and can't rely on their lawyer? Incredible!

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 16:12
Shame on Cyprus from Cloud Cuckoo Land comments:

@RW

Too true what you say about Lidl, been in there on several occasions and had to hurry out with my trolley before somebody else snatches it......... funny though, the Lidl I go to is in Paralimni, just opposite Karayiannas Developers Offices.

Wonder if they have been tutoring !!!!

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 16:01
Max comments:

But if the other judge who 'ruled' in the other case of Conor's where he was assualted for the 2nd time, (which is also being appealed by the Public Prosecuter btw) is to be believed, they won't be crashing into your trolley on purpose, it will only be because you both happen to be travelling in the same direction at speed......and they will only then beat you up because they then happen to recognise you as someone who has perhaps annoyed them in the past, so that's ok then :)

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 14:20
Nollaig Glas from Larnaca comments:

The property agents are suffering big time. Buyers first question .. are there title deeds with the propery ?? If not buyers just drop the enquiry .. Estate agents will tell you that their business has dropped by 75% over the last 2 years. And property values have dropped dramatically .. Cyprus keeps giving itself more and more rope with which to hang itself

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 13:00
Hello from Nicosia comments:

It's quite simple really. If your name is on the title deed, you own the property. If not, you don't.

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 12:55
Prop Own from Paphos comments:

when a sales contract is registered at the land office stamp duty is paid. Provided this is done within 3 months of the sale you can rely on the law of specific performance. By taking the stamp duty tax is it not the case the authorities are confirming the transaction as a legal one.

Once the developer has the title deeds or has been given notice they are ready for transfer to them by the land office, you can serve notice under the law of specific performance (after 6 months I understand) to tranfer to your name. As a last result you can apply to the courts and they can give lawful instruction to transfer.

If the developer has an existing mortgage secured against the property at the time of signing the contract your lawyer should have told you. If the did not then you will have a claim against the lawyer. The developer can take out further security on the property until such time as the deeds are transferred. With so many developers in debt who rely on your property for security many are unable to transfer title as this would require them to pay up on the security.

The entire process of buying and selling in Cyprus needs true reform, the district land offic is frankly a mess. In todays environment tite adminsitration and processing should all be online, quick and efficient.

When entering into a sales contract agree in the contract a miminal fee to allowyou to cancel the contract and reassign it to a buyer if you have sold. Fixing a small and fair fee will stop the practice of charging vast sums to simply sign a new contract, cancel yours and sort a few admin issues out.

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 12:50
Max comments:

What is really unfair is that Conor funded this case himself because the AG/State refused to bring it, he also got landed with the other side's costs which he can't pay as they already have most of his money (the rest went to lawyers). The AG has now approved an appeal but will Conor have to fund this too? I hope not, as Conor will now also be paying for the judge's mistake or stupidity, I also hope that as the AG has effectively agreed that the verdict was wrong that Conor will no longer have to pay their costs and will have his own refunded by the state. The developers are well aware that the ordinary man in the street that they rip off has not the money or tenanciousness to carry on in the courts as Conor as had to. You're absolutely right Kia Picanto, Conor is doing this for everyone and he can never stop until wrongs are put right in this country. I applaud him too.

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 12:41
Terry comments:

Cyprus seems intent on cutting it's own throat. So sad.

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 12:20
Ralph comments:

@dean

The developers always recommend a lawyer who is as crooked as they are. Any lawyer who dares to fight for somebody who has a grievance against a developer is put on the developer's blacklist,i.e. when people buying from a developer ask for recommendation regarding a lawyer,the developer will say that those on their blacklist are crooks,whereas the opposite is true.

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 12:19
Kia Picanto comments:

Excellent article. Well done Cyprus Mail! It's just possible that the worm may finally begin to turn, and one day, we may even thank this Judge, for her outrageously wrong decision. It has highlighted, to the international arena, how very unjust the Cypriot laws are. Things MUST change!

Conor and Michaela - we all owe you SO much. Your strength and resilience have been amazing. Lesser mortals would have thrown the towel in years ago. When you eventually win this protracted battle, and the perpetrators finally get their just desserts, the whole of the UK, Cyprus and the rest of Europe, should raise a glass to you in thanks.

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 12:16
Mike from Limassol comments:

Thank you Judge. My, or what was my, property in the Occupied areas now apparently do not belong to me and neither does my property in Limassol.
Why in god's name did I work so damned hard for since 1965 to the present day to secure my future when it is apparently all for nothing.
Can anyone confirm if this lady is in any way related to the developers in question or if she has ties to Turkey in some perverse way. I would find it hard to believe as most of the Turkish or Turkish Cypriot people I know are very pleasant and no different to the rest of us of Greek descent, but there is a sniff of some skulduggery or collusion here.
However there is always the point that we perhaps should not attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity.
Perhaps the AG's office could enlighten us mere mortals with a statement of explanation in the media.

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 12:07
Celtic Warrior from Llondain comments:

Interesting article which highlights the problem in Cyprus which is that the buying and registration process is inadequate to protect a buyer. The whole process needs better discussion.

In fact the judge is technically correct. A sales contract is only evidence of ownership but not proof. If you have been defrauded you can apply for an order to have the entry corrected. This is a problem even in the UK where a successful fraudulent application to the register does not mean that the fraudster can keep the land "in perpetuity" i.e forever. In the Uk the entries are "guaranteed" by the state so that a buyer is protected if the entry has been put on the registry fraudulently (but there are greater safeguards in the UK buying process which make this unlikely) .

A good example closer to Cyprus is the land taken in the occupied areas. No amount of registration take away the rights of the original owner, which is why the suggestion at the ECHR in the Demopoulos decision that it could was greeted with such dismay in Cyprus and amongst academics and lawyers around the world.

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 12:07
dean morris from uk comments:

I AM A PROPERTY OWNER IN CYPRUS , OR AT LEAST I THINK I AM
IT SEEMS THE PROPERTY DEVELOPER STILL HAS CONTROL OF MY PROPERTY
I HAVE TO BUNG HIM A WAD OF CASH IF I WISH TO SELL MY HOUSE
WHEN I BOUGHT THE HOUSE, THE SOLICITOR( RECOMMENDED BY THE DEVELOPER) DID NOT TELL ME THIS
YOU ARE DOING YOURSELF NO FAVOURS CYPRUS, WE CAN ALL READ THE NEWS RE THE PROPERTY LAWS
THIS WILL CERTAINLY PUT OFF PROSPECTIVE BUYERS

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 12:04
Tony Hall from Paphos comments:

Her judgement can only be an opinion.
Do you not think that in this instance, her opinion could be challenged?
Some people make ridiculous statements, merely to draw attention to themselves.

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 11:57
Bert comments:

So I do not own my property if title deads are on hold by the Land Reg.despite that the sales contract is accepted by the L.R.
Interesting point!

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 11:40
Gavin Jones comments:

An excellent editorial which succintly and brilliantly points out - yet again - the inept, bewildering and crass decision making prowess of the Cypriot judiciary.

However, I must take issue with one sentence, unless the writer is demonstrating something more in the nature of tongue in cheek, when he writes that, "These are very important questions that nobody should be asking in a country in which there is rule of law".

I think we know full well what the public's view of that is...

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 11:32
Ben Dover from swift and bold comments:

does this ruling also mean displaced people with property in the northern sector of Cyprus have no rights to ownership in perpetuity also??

 

Sat, January 29th 2011 at 11:31
The Ott from Limassol comments:

Bravo, she has just handed away all Greek Cypriot property in the North of Cyprus!!
I wonder if she knows how to apply the offside law in football!